The Universe, the Sacred, the Transcendental, and Sustainability

"You are not IN the Universe, you ARE the Universe, an intrinsic part of it. Ultimately, you are not a person, but a focal point where the Universe is becoming conscious of itself. What an amazing miracle!" ~Eckhart Tolle

UU-rltd Frst Knp "You are a function of what the whole Universe is doing in the same way that a Wave is a function of what the whole Ocean is doing." . . . ~Alan Watts

Mark Rego Monteiro I remember this kind of stuff from college. Am I, are we, the Universe experiencing itself? It sounds fun. Idolizing the Universe is tempting, because it´s so big! And beautiful! But, am I the Crab Nebula "experiencing itself"? Uh, no. And neither is Tolle, or Watts the wave. Astrophysicist Hubble wasn´t the galaxy he confirmed red-shifting, nor was he the telescope. But, as Sagan said, "We are starstuff, forged in a furnace!" Uh, well, cool, but that was a long time ago, thanks. We can be grateful for knowing about nuclear fusion and supernovae (s), because we are a specific PART of the Universe with unusual abilities, and they´re not just physical, nor just biochemical. Being "grateful," as opposed to just ecstatic, involves qualities like in Huston Smith´s saying, in books like The World´s Religions, "The purpose of (things like spiritual practice) isn´t altered states, but altered traits." That "ecstatic cosmology" has characteristics that need to be grounded to greater relevance and sustainability, and awareness of personal and transpersonal health. Joseph Campbell made interesting connections in his books like Myths We Live By, including to shamanism. I always liked linking JC to Jung.

In Jung´s vein, Karen Armstrong validates spiritual practice and a transcendental ultimate reality. The Universe came from somewhere, and confusing the Universe with us blows continuity out of proportion. It seems like a reaction against scientific reductionism, but it misplaces the Universe alone equating it to our spiritual experience, interdependence, emotional awareness, needs around empathy, and the U´s own cause. Continuity exists, but there are distinctions that reflect our emergent minds and spiritual experience that has a specific religious history, broader anthropological diversity, involving a materialistic down side of biological tendencies summed up by the Buddha as ignorance, greed, and hatred. It was Moses´ Top 10 that linked things like murder to God and prophetic history, and Jesus´ fulfillment of Moses´ 10 with 2 plus about lovingkindness that have led to telescopes, the UN, UNDP, and UNEP. Greenpeace´s slogan has been, "This Fragile Earth Needs a Voice," and Oxfam´s Make Trade Fair. Both groups included Quaker founders. Human life and Western Civ´s UN community are PARTS of the Universe, and Jesus´ commandments are key parts of Western Civ. Sustainability, too. Redemptive Panentheism truly offers hope, when all is said and done.

Epistemology and science (and academic disciplines)

The topic of epistemology has interested me specifically since I began engaging with anti-theist Scientism materialists, and I quickly realized the awkwardness and disjointedness of terms like "academic disciplines and subdisciplines for one," and "knowledge and phenomena domains," and the fallacies of failing to distinguish as the anti-theists frequently do, and not just with "religion." The original blog is "Set Things," and you can click the article title: Epistemology and science by Nicolae Sfetcu | posted in: Epistemology, Science | 0 Field of application of epistemology For a long time, epistemology has focused exclusively on the content of science, the history of this content, and the genealogy of the advances of this content. Science as a human institution was left to other disciplines, in particular to sociology. The question of the nature of science was then confounded with that of the nature of scientific knowledge. But Hervé Barreau points out that this content of science did not care about the difference between common knowledge and scientific knowledge. It was not until the eighteenth century that philosophy and epistemology “manifest the weakness of common beliefs and opinions” so that epistemology really focuses on scientific knowledge.

On the other hand, the first epistemologies did not pose the question of the capacities of the sensibility and the understanding of the human being allowing the knowledge, any more than of the origin of these capacities. Hervé Barreau believes that it is Kant who initiates this question; “[Kant shows] that scientific knowledge was only possible from the a priori forms of sensibility and understanding”.

Then came the question of the passage from common knowledge, more or less empirical, to scientific knowledge. Hervé Barreau evokes David Hume, but especially holds the psychology of the nineteenth century as the only capable of explaining this passage with “acceptable results”. “Husserl who is the founder of the phenomenological movement […] has denounced [the idealistic foundation] of scientific knowledge by psychology [that is, by the subjectivity of the learner]”. It is the cognitive sciences that are currently at the forefront of these explanations. Epistemology then married a “historical” stream with the advent of the historico-critical method as the guiding method. “Scientists are beginning to produce works in history [of science] and philosophy of science [= epistemology]”. It is this historico-critical method that can be perpetually revised and perfected that has been used by Bachelard and Canguilhem.

In recent decades, some sociological trends (notably science studies) have called for a “right of scrutiny” over this content by analyzing the context of scientific production by the scientific community, while some epistemologists consider it necessary to pay attention to concrete dimensions of scientific activity to better understand the advancement of scientific knowledge. As the progress of knowledge has helped, the number of studied sciences and the volume of specific responses relating to certain sciences have steadily increased. A classification has been set up around a “flagship” discipline called the special science that deals with specific issues in relation to science in general.

Epistemologists In the 21st century, a double movement is emerging: philosophers (ontologists, epistemologists) [of science] must know the sciences on which and from which they express themselves, ////...... “scientists who do not update their philosophy [and the history of their subject] contaminate their science with moribund philosophies”.....////// Guillaume Lecointre considers it necessary today to remind researchers of the terms of the tacit contract which conditions the possibility of reproducibility of scientific experiments: initial skepticism about the facts;..../////..... realism of principle;..../////..... methodological materialism;..../////..... rationality [and logic]. ..../////.....

Epistemological decomposition of science: the special sciences..../////..... Depending on the historical period, science is broken down into different disciplines and the authors group them together:..../////..... in two parts: sciences and human sciences,..../////..... in 3 parts: physical sciences, life sciences and human sciences,..../////..... in four parts: formal sciences, physico-chemical sciences, life sciences and human sciences. ......../////..... These epistemological pillars are represented by one or more “special sciences”. ..../////..... In recent epistemology, there are often two sections, one is related to the epistemology of science in general (recurrent and transversal issues) and the other is concerned with “regional” epistemologies. a specific discipline with regional issues. The most cited special sciences are:......./////..... Logic: see epistemology of logic, philosophy of logic,..../////..... Mathematics: see also the philosophy of mathematics,..../////..... Physics,..../////..... Medicine: see epistemology of medicine,..../////..... Biology,..../////..... Linguistics,..../////..... Social sciences,..../////..... History,..../////..... Economics,..../////..... Cognitive science,..../////..... Psychology...../////..... Each special science is the subject of a particular epistemology. The latter brought to the epistemology of science in general new questions with more or less happiness...../////..... Themes of the epistemology of science..../////.....

The five classic themes are:..../////..... the explanation;..../////..... the confirmation ;..../////..... the causality;..../////..... the scientific realism and ontology of the objects of science, thus free from all metaphysics...../////..... Then there are other themes: the change in science (called “paradigmatology” by Edgar Morin), the impact of the concept of emergence on the notion of reduction in science, syntactic and semantic approaches in analysis scientific theories. ..../////..... Themes of the epistemologies of the special sciences..../////..... The regional epistemology of science (the case of biology, for example) has led to the declension into epistemologies of the special sciences. It could be :..../////..... of a general theme which has been particularized by special science;..../////..... the emergence on the front of the stage of a new theme related specifically to the special science and which does not become generalized to other disciplines...../////..... For example, the theme of ethics that is posed to the economy of which we can not accept that the science that takes it as its object does not worry about the fate of fragile populations...../////..... Some authors have wanted to “impose” on the epistemology processes of a special science: for example the evolutionist epistemology “tracing” on epistemology the evolutionist theory of species described in biology.

The Warriors of the Rainbow Prophecy

22 April, 2014 - 00:57 johnblack The Warriors of the Rainbow Prophecy

"One day... there would come a time, when the earth being ravaged and polluted, the forests being destroyed, the birds would fall from the air, the waters would be blackened, the fish being poisoned in the streams, and the trees would no longer be, mankind as we would know it would all but cease to exist" Cree //// //// //// .....

This is how the ‘Rainbow prophecy’ begins, as retold by a woman of the Cree Indian nation of America over a century ago. The Cree are one of the largest groups of the First Nations Native Americans in North America. There are over 135 bands of Cree living in Canada, with a total population of approximately 200,000 today. ////.....//////..... The Rainbow prophecy, as it has come to be known, refers to the keepers of the legends, rituals, and other myths that will be needed when the time comes to restore the health on Earth. It is believed that these legendary beings will return on a day of awakening, when all people will unite and create a new world of justice, peace and freedom, and they will be named the ‘Warriors of the Rainbow’. They will reteach the values and the knowledge that has been lost in time, demonstrating how to have wisdom and extra-perception, and how unity, harmony and love is the only way forward.

The rainbow reference relates to the different colours of the original people:............. "At the beginning of this cycle of time, long ago, the Great Spirit came down and He made an appearance and He gathered the peoples of this earth together, they say on an island which is now beneath the water, and He said to the human beings, "I'm going to send you to four directions and over time I'm going to change you to four colours, but I'm going to give you some teachings and you will call these the Original Teachings and when you come back together with each other you will share these so that you can live and have peace on earth, and a great civilization will come about."............ Prophecy as told by Lee Brown of the Salish Tribe at the 1986 Continental Indigenous Council, Alaska .

A particularly interesting part of the prophecy relates to the choosing of leaders. According to the story, a leader will not be the one that talks the loudest, boasts of successes, or has the support of the elite. Leaders will be those whose actions speak the loudest, the ones that have demonstrated wisdom and courage and have proven that they work for the benefit of all. Isn’t this how things should be?....////........ The Rainbow has always held special significance among the different Native American Indian Nations. It is connected to the Spirit (Supreme God/Creator) in all things. Apart from the Cree prophecy there are many prophecies and stories from the Hopi, the Zuni and the Cherokee related to the rainbow warriors.

"There will come a day when people of all races, colors, and creeds will put aside their differences. They will come together in love, joining hands in unification, to heal the Earth and all Her children. They will move over the Earth like a great Whirling Rainbow, bringing peace, understanding and healing everywhere they go. Many creatures thought to be extinct or mythical will resurface at this time; the great trees that perished will return almost overnight. All living things will flourish, drawing sustenance from the breast of our Mother, the Earth................ The great spiritual Teachers who walked the Earth and taught the basics of the truths of the Whirling Rainbow Prophecy will return and walk amongst us once more, sharing their power and understanding with all. We will learn how to see and hear in a sacred manner. Men and women will be equals in the way Creator intended them to be; all children will be safe anywhere they want to go. Elders will be respected and valued for their contributions to life. Their wisdom will be sought out. The whole Human race will be called The People and there will be no more war, sickness or hunger forever."........... Navajo-Hopi Prophecy of the Whirling Rainbow

"In the time of the Seventh Fire, a New People would emerge. They would retrace their steps to find the wisdom that was left by the side of the trail long ago. Their steps would take them to the elders, who they would ask to guide them on their journey. If the New People remain strong in their quest, the sacred drum will again sound its voice. There will be an awakening of the people, and the sacred fire will again be lit. At this time, the light-skinned race will be given a choice between two roads. One road is the road of greed and technology without wisdom or respect for life. This road represents a rush to destruction. The other road is spirituality, a slower path that includes respect for all living things. If we choose the spiritual path, we can light yet another fire, an Eight Fire, and begin an extended period of Peace and healthy growth."............... Grandfather William Commanda, Circle of All Nations Prophecy of the Seven Fires of the Anishnabe, From Ancient Wampum Belt

While Wikipedia would have people believe that the legend originates in a 1962 book titled ‘Warriors of the Rainbow’ by William Willoya and Vinson Brown, the reality is that the prophecy is ancient, passed down as oral history over many generations. Brown, himself, admitted that his research came from the Hopi prophecies, and the book has been criticised as an attempt to evangelize with the Native American community by relating the prophecy of the Rainbow Warriors to the Second Coming of Christ.............. References to a new Era, a Golden Age characterised by harmony, stability and prosperity, do not just belong to the Native Americans, but can be found in myths and legends from all over the world. It is known as Chryson Genos in Greek mythology, the Kali yuga in Vedic and Hindu culture, and gullaldr in Norse mythology. One aspect that is common among many legends of the Golden era is the return of beings or gods that will aid in the restoration of the Earth.

In classical Greek mythology the Golden Age was presided over by the leading Titan Cronus. In some version of the myth Astraea, also ruled. She lived with men until the end of the Silver Age, but in the Bronze Age, when men became violent and greedy, fled to the stars, where she appears as the constellation Virgo, holding the scales of Justice, or Libra......... Whether these prophecies are true or not, much of what is spoken about – the era of greed and violence – is a reality throughout much of the world today. Corruption, greed, poverty, consumerism, power to the few, and injustice are predominant characteristics of our civilization accompanied by a great technological advancement that has become a weapon for mass destruction and a tool for supressing resistance. Whether beings from the past will interfere or not, one thing is for sure, life cannot continue in this way forever........... Featured Image: A Plains Cree warrior and pipe stem carrier. Painted by Paul Kane at the Fort Pitt region, North Saskatchewan River, Saskatchewan, Canada.(Public Domain/ Wikimedia).............. By John Black (original from ancient-origins.net)

"Is There an Anti-theist Doctor in the House?"

Hello! New here. I was a firm atheist until a few days ago. I had a very serious personal issue, my friend prayed over me, and that's the first time that I can remember that I have felt anything that's made me feel a spiritual connection or presence of any kind. I've been slowly exploring this. Does anybody have any resources for former atheists that want to get their toes wet? I've been enjoying some worship music and prayer. Thanks in advance for any input!❤

Mark Rego Monteiro I´m a Unitarian Universalist, and recommend their Principles and Sources as advanced modern activist Christianity, and they have a great hymnal, but they´re more humanistic than I prefer. I left my atheist upbringing as I drew on scholar Huston Smith´s book World´s Religions, Chinese Taoism, and Kung Fu/Tai Chi, and then Buddhism (a lot of temples in NYC), spiritual stories in Jack Kornfield´s book Stories of the Spirit, and Yoga, Shamanic workshops, and the 12 step group codependency Recovery Movement that enriched my spiritual life and intelligence. At some point after that I got curious about Christian Science´s healing focus and Quaker-Friendism, while enjoying Episcopalian and Catholic lunchtime services. The United Church of Christ has some good activism. Keep circulating, because modern society has outstripped many doctrines and denominations, so that interdenominational and interfaith understanding is how individuals can push and stretch conservative doctrines. Jesus´ legacy is in Universities through inspired monks like Thomas of Aquinas, mystics like Hildegarde of Bingen, and now the Freedom of Religion in a materialistic society that needs interfaith wisdom to free Jesus himself.

Danie Bake Prayer is a powerful placebo. It taps into the same neurotransmitter's as meditation providing a peaceful feeling. Helping hands are better than praying hands. I was a devout Christian for over 50yrs. After working in Pediatric Oncology I started to question my faith. What kind of all knowing super entity would aklow a sweet child to suffer like this. What kind of all knowing super entity requires worship or it has murderous temper tantrums. There have been thousands of Gods worshipped throughout history. I deny one less God than you.

Eileen Borghi Frey I agree. Mark Rego Monteiro Congratulations on leaving doctrinal Christianity. I got my bachelor´s in Bio Anthro after leaving atheism with a combo of UU principles and a non-objectifying form of theism based on scholar Huston Smith´s definition of the Chinese Tao. As an oncologist, you´ll appreciate that my dad died of his weakened system after radiation treatment for his cancer, along with a heart attack. My dad was interested in Psychology, but had let himself get addicted to work at least, and neglected his other physical and psychological, and spiritual, needs. I started my work life in Social Services, but diversified while maintaining my Bio Anthro and psychosocial foundations. As such, I might just point out that prayer is more than a placebo, as is meditation. The classic 1950s case of Mr. Wright and Dr. West provides a powerful kind of baseline. However, there are different approaches to prayer, with the Catholic appeals to saints and self-flagellating arguably being least associated with healing. Christian Science, however, was founded by a woman who founded a church that has a huge body of testimony literature that is illuminating. It also spawned offshoots from which emerged such lights as Louise Hay who healed her cancer through bodywork psychotherapy and holistics oriented to divine guidance and "the Infinity of Life where I am." Then, there are other testimonies and their contexts that include visions and details, and even the angles of hospital reports, that reveal contexts more extensive than reductionism. In fact, the phenomena of "emergent properties" contributes a significant angle. As for "helping hands," they aren´t mutually exclusive with "praying hands," just an angle of your apparent experience with "praying hands." As for a super entity allowing sick children to suffer, what kind of medical system has allowed the insights of Psychosomatics and Spiritual healing to be excluded and even derided? OC Simonton MD, for one, set up a cancer clinic, wrote about some miracle cases and other moderate improvements, and the psychodynamic challenges, and then a second book including spiritual components and a similar spectrum. Still, given people´s flaws, why blame God for a divided medical system of imperfect people?

I´m an environmentalist, and know that human bio-psychosocial tendencies to choose greed as profiteering is a complex phenomenon, and children are no less victimized by the evil people cling to, that Buddhism and Addiction Psychology illuminate. As for "gods," Jesus taught "Seek first the Kingdom of Heaven (where? within and among you)" and "Clean the cup within where there is wickedness" that Anthony of the Desert revealed in 270 like the Buddha and Freud/Jung, for ex. Whyh blame God for your church´s doctrine? Jefferson gave us Freedom of Religion as a Deist Christian. Taoism led me to Buddhism, psychology, shamanism, hypnotherapy, yoga, Kung Fu/Tai Chi, and so on. Why blame God because you didn´t you look around? There is no God but Allah, said Mohammed, but Science and UN Human Rights come from Jesus´ high integrity followers, so that God is the Creator and Source, but how do you relate to that God and diverse forces and entities in the Creation that follows laws? I am grateful to the one through Jesus that made the Freedom of Religion, FDR´s UN, and Gandhi, and post-Christian for many UUism possible. It´s one more than you, and is the reference in Levels of Explanation for the thousands of others. Enjoy, but remember that your doubts are your doubts, not God´s. ·

Danie Bake Mark Rego Monteiro , Regarding God, There is no reason to assume existence without evidence. You do not get to imagine possibilities into existence. Many theoretical physicists believe that the world was created billions of years ago by a process called MTheory. https://youtu.be/Q51OTSPQgKg Stanford University did a research project on the effectiveness of intercessory prayer. Conclusion: Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/longawaited-medical-study-questions-the-power-of-prayer.html What kind of all knowing super entity requires worship or it has murderous temper tantrums

Mark Rego Monteiro You assert, "...can´t assume (God´s) existence without evidence" and " can´t imagine possibilities into existence," as if you treat psychological denialism as a form of denying the evidence. As your links show, you merely treat a lab study of prayer as "evidence," and then cite the famous late theoretical physicist whose last book displayed openly the worst fallacies of scientific determinism, i.e. Scientism. Hawking et al´s classic statement from The Grand Design, "Philosophy is dead" and oh yeah, "The reality of the world is merely as it is perceived in an individual´s models," meaning he confused classical unempirical Philosophy with all forms of Philosophy, including Science, and immediately began to philosophize. Similarly, lab results have to be adequately interpreted, showing how "science" is a popularized term for Scientific Philosophy. Similarly, the failure to fully simulate abiogenesis and solar nuclear fusion in labs doesn´t mean they don´t occur, you can´t recreate historical Rome of 0 AD, and saying, "We put an automechanic in a room with blueberry pie ingredients, and he didn´t make a pie! Conclusion: humans can´t make pies!" Oh? And put two strangers together in a lab, a man and woman, to test for the existence of love, romantic or otherwise. Results? What? No love? Love doesn´t exist! Human psychosocial and cultural contexts are extremely complex, so that lab failures of prayer performance is strictly limited to its very specific artificial and piecemeal reconstruction, and deceptive or deluded if not accompanied by a large asterix asserting, "Reminder and Warning: This experiment is attempting to simulate a complex human behavior, and is strictly limited in context and implications." (continued)

Mark Rego Monteiro Danie Bake And that is why testimonies being confirmed in their before/after conditions by medical authorities offer a more realistic form for scientific philosophical study, like ex-cerebral palsy (a form of infantile brain damage) victim Marlene Klepees´ testimony confirmed in its before/after conditions by the Mayo Clinic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU8q0GoMF1Y , Rich Owen´s prayerful recovery from liver failure by an Orlando Hospital, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phoB7YABGMk&t=2s , and Wendy Moore´s healing of Lou Gehrig´s/ALS by U Mich Ann Arbor Hospital https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejU38sJ4loY&t=207s . Your lack of caution in interpreting the results of a study, along with the larger implications for understanding the philosophical issues that make up science, is reflected in this evaluation of a form of medical bias and neglect by this Harvard team with two MDs and a PhD from Harvard Public Health et al.... https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/rshm/vanderweele-koh-balboni-health-and-spirituality (continued)

Mark Rego Monteiro DanieBake Thus, as Koh MD et al point out, spirituality and health have a "substantial history in most cultures" of being interconnected. The scientific format I am supplying appropriately also reflects a reluctance by MD´s to write journal articles on "spontaneous remissions," and their contexts, as L Dossey MD points out. However, researchers like Harvard´s JD Rediger MD, Lyssa Rankin MD, and K Turner PhD have been doing extensive work on "spontaneous remissions," and illuminating their psychosocial and spiritual angles. As such, different forms of "evidence" reveal the biases of "physical paradigms in science" and scientist extremist´s inadequate and fallacious philosophical knowledge and awareness. The confirmation of spiritual and religious phenomena is consistent with historical reports of phenomena and the philosophical evaluation of knowledge and phenomena domains. As for physicists and theories of Creation, "M" theory is all about Whitten and diverse string theories combined, all in a mechanistic vein. Goedel´s Incompleteness Theorem You show a willingness to deny and neglect appropriate and relevant evaluations. The development of modern Universities from Christian monastic schools and the revival of spiritual healing in George Fox, St. Bernadette´s Lourdes, Mary B Eddy´s Christian Science, JG Lake´s ministries, W Seymour´s Azusa St. Revival, and so on, along with Therapeutic and Transpersonal Psychology from Freud, Jung to Rogers, et al, is also not reducible to fraud, neurochemistry, and odd imprudently reasoned negative lab studies. Again, why blame and project on God for human doctrinal demands, human "temper tantrums, and your own lack of disciplined exploration of Comparative Christianity and Religious Studies? I know I don´t have an MD, but you sure as hell have been coddled into mistaking your MD degree as anything like my systematic spiritual search combining my Bio Anthro, Taoism to Shamanism, and Christian Science to Episcopalianim, my professional work in Soc Svc´s AND Wall St., and my masters in Intl Relations, plus. You are overblown, underexperienced, and in denial. And that´s ok, as long as you don´t know any better. Logical fallacies are philosophical and psychological projection is psychological, and learning has a curve. ·

Daniel Baker Mark Rego Monteiro , Please provide me with Any objective evidence for a God. If there is an all knowing super entity running this universe, he should have been fired a long time ago. Not a very good resume so far. AND, if he is as powerful as you believe he is, he should know exactly what it would take to convince me he is real. Even then, I wouldn't worship him. Any God who has the Power to heal suffering and chooses not to is a murderer in my book.

Mark Rego Monteiro Danie Bake The objective evidence has various forms, and is amply contained in the series of testimonies and assessments that I laid out generously for you, and that you impulsively neglected to scan. Your response indicates that you are not responding literately and logically, but based on your psychological condition. You then try to condition God to your judgments using human organizational criteria undisciplined by appropriate criteria. The Universe has been studied by physicists because ancient Greek Philosophy was not allowed to perish. Why didn´t Philosophy perish? Because Christian monks and their monastic schools became modern Christian Universities. By DesCartes, scholars carelessly failed in their mechanicism to persist in acknowledging their debt to Jesus and his theism explicitly. Even Thomas Jefferson as a rationalist Deist Christian Freethinker in the public eye didn´t make that mistake. The "resume" you refer to fails to assign responsibility appropriately. As the Neo-Assyrians in 800 BC/E were ruthless, God as perceived through shamans and non-Jewish priests had taken a polytheist character. God´s message through Abraham, Moses´ 10 Commandments, and the 50 plus Hebrew prophets operated in a historical context, as the Buddha emerged in NE India, Lao Tzu in China, Pantanjali´s Yoga in India, and Socrates in Greece, all around 500 BC/E. Ezra was a major Jewish prophet at that time as the Jewish people returned from Cyrus´ Persian Babylon to Yehud. Jesus represents a historical landmark with reference to God, although his spiritual teachings about God´s love became filtered and worked into doctrines by political concerns and demands, perhaps not illegitimately. That´s a key phenomena and knowledge domain that requires study and reflection. "God should know exactly what it would take to convince me he is real." Well, God´s love through Jesus has convinced me, a Harvard grad in Bio Anthro and Soc Svc guy on assignments, who has sought the Truth. As far as I can speak for the God´s honest Truth, you are acting like a victim, thus projecting layers built up as a privileged doctor on top of your basic family of origin personality.

God´s love through Jesus has been expressed through University scholarship and Psychology, from Freud and Jung to Rogers, Harlow and more. As Christianity´s University spawn child Science shows, God has created a complex reality that we can understand. Instead, you clung, and cling, to some disempowering church doctrine and your frozen lab rat view of science. You can´t even respond rationally and attentively to my assertions. So, you steer your own boat in the river and eddies of material and cultural existence. I was raised by an well-rounded ex-Catholic doctorate atheist dad, and discovered UUism´s "spiritual path support" and Huston Smith´s Taoism to ignite my slow fuse with a non-objectified Yin-Yang/Tai Chi view, and then the adventure of college and beyond, now to Greenpeace, organic food, food co-ops, and interfaith and interdenominational Christianity. It´s all real time, but spiritual experience. Now, I watched my videos and read my links. You can´t even do that. Ever hear the one about the guy on a rooftop in a flood? He prays to God for help, and refuses a boat and helicopter because he says, "No, thanks. I prayed to God." So, he drowns. After the pearly gates, he is interviewed by God, and asks, "God, I prayed for your help! Where were you when I needed you?" God answers, "Let´s see," thumbingthrough his file cards, "Dan Baker? I sent you a boat, a helicopter, and Mark RM´s amply enriching discussion, but hey, it all worked out, you had your chance to choose and learn, but time ran out. Now, that way to the pearly gates. Hey, ever read A Christmas Carol?"

*** Mark Rego Monteiro Danie Bake That´s a question to be explored, and that´s what scholars and sincere seekers do. I´ve already had a profound head start, and looked at adequate material to establish some strong views. Science has made an important contribution, as a subset form of Philosophy to its parental forms in Epistemology and Empiricism, all forms of Greek-derived eclectic Christian Theo-Philosophy. Scholars like T Woods and P Duhem have pointed out how the view of God through Jesus as omnipotent and lawful overcame a number of foundational limiting assumptions of the Greeks and Muslims. My undergrad Harvard degree in Bio Anthro gave me an original depth of insight that has stuck as I worked in Social Services and beyond. Globalization of diverse secularized Christian "Western" cultural components, especially the University and the UN Human Rights-oriented community, has established the Christian-based worldview´s breadth and comprehensiveness as Jesus´ high integrity legacy, although contaminated by profiteering and other hypocritical elements. While Eliot Chapple´s behavioral Bio Anthro, widely unknown, has established some key bio-psychsocial foundations of religious behaviors, more conventional views like Van Gennep, M Eliade, and R Otto themselves make extensive inroads. I´ll take alook at HDS´s project, but you should read up on the Anthropology of Religion and foundational scholars like M Eliade and R Otto. The internet truly delivers sometimes.... https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.275529/page/n1/mode/2up

Mark Rego Monteiro Danie Bake Dan, that HDS project looks marvelous and solid, as might be expected since even the 1800s and Unitarianism´s good points with Harvard´s "sons" Thoreau and Emerson pioneering engagement with Hinduism....Their view, "we acknowledge that there are multiple authentic expressions of religious devotion in the world," gets itself embedded in the Christian University-based religious views informed by Science. Science is a form of secularized eclectic Christian Empirical Philosophy, as I mentioned, that is based on a view of God through Jesus as omnipotent (and more) that has in fact mastered much of the physical Universe and Social Sciences, and Humanities, and thus encompasses other cultural forms, as HDS starts to lay out. It supersedes now and that way some outdated aspects of the OT. Within Christian denominations and in Christian society we can usually speak about "integrity" and hypocrisy" in relation to Jesus, while inter-culturally, we can only speak of resonant alignment and supplementation or frictional dissonance of component elements. Buddhism resonates with Jesus´ teachings to "Clean the cup within," but not, in the final analysis, a total "non-self." Islam´s devotion to God is resonant, but Sharia has a number of frictional elements, for ex. ***

Mark Rego Monteiro Danie Bake There is then also the question of historical development, from Shamanism to various Neolithic groups like Mesopotamia, and from that to Abraham, then the length,people, and events of the OT. All that requires historicity, the appropriate attention to time-period understandings and avoiding anachronistic projections of modern and personal expected norms. Anthropology and Psychology, even Sociology, are powerful scholarly subject domains to use, such as Bowlby´s cross-cultural mother attachment studies and Piaget´s work and diversified legacy through say, Elizabeth Bates on affective development and Kohlberg on moral processes. Philosophically, then, in the Phil of Religion, "Who created the Creator / Source?" That´s where General Systems Theory and emergent properties in epistemology can help. The first form of cellular life emerged from a pre-biotic chemical precursor in a like vesicle. We might ask philosophically what mitosis gave rise to that first form of cellular life, and the question is not adequate for the pre-biotic precursor. It is a different order of phenomena. Similarly, the question of where do the Newtonian laws come from has been clarified as "lawful behavioral physico-energetic regularities" traced down (micro) and up (macro), but down to the Quantum mechanical world it shifts to light´s velocity, non-local phenomena, Higg´s fields, M-string theory and the quantum vacuum. S Carroll has a Core Theory equation. All Physics, however, is a form of Philosophy, and our human forms of Philosophy wouldn´t have been possible without Christian monastic schools in the historical, psychological, and sociological developments of Christian complex society. Before we could seek the Higg´s field, we needed Jesus´ legacy and parental relation to God at root, following many generations after Abraham´s precursors, Abraham, Moses and God´s "I am that I am," and the rest unforgotten. The question, "Who created the Creator?" thus, before the Big Bang, underlying and immanent to the Higg´s field and any hypothesized "strings" draws a response in emergent properties and General Systems Theory epistemology: a higher order reality and entity/being. "Infinite regress" as a concept fails as an empirical concept, refuted by logical absurdities and contradictory results. "Ultimate reality" is a philosophically open term sometimes used, neuroanthropologist C McLaughlin and psychiatrist E D´Aquili, who cited some of Chapple´s work, used "Absolute Unitary Being." D´Aquili´s student A Newberg has contributed to "spiritual intelligence" conceived in terms of the brain´s cerebral "synchronous processing." Thus, there are supplements to the classic answer building on Aristotle, that God´s higher order nature is a First Cause/Unmoved Mover, Aquinas´ Uncaused Cause, and as WL Craig lays out in the Kalam Cosmological Argument, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and eternal, and personal. God has also been called "self-caused." I recommend reading up on the philosophical work, because that at least is disciplined and scholarly.

Christ Isn´t Only In the Bible

Patric Hof @Je Rei So you’re suggesting that Christ isn’t experienced outside of what is written in the Bible?

Je Reim Patric Hof No, but how could we recognize our experience of Christ without the revelation of the Bible?

Patric Hof Jef Reim Well certainly Christ is prepared for, described, and historically quoted in the Bible. But the presence of Christ is timeless. His presence can be, and still is, experienced in our lives—and not just Christian lives.

Mark Rego Monte I´m an outsider raised on the US inside, and was guided by the desire to help and learn the truth of how after beginning to touch lightly on theism in the Chinese Tao and UUism´s vague acknowledgement of people´s "spiritual path." My US-based Brazilian dad was ex-Catholic atheist and pro-education, and my mom German-born agnostic. As I engaged with Christianity, I did it beginning with a powerful basis in the 12 step group Recovery Movement (and its strong psychotherapeutic and smooth spiritual basis) and holistics that made Christian Science´s approach to God´s healing "power" (actually "reality") and presence through Jesus and the Bible palatable. UUism´s flexible openness has maintained it as my primary approach, and altogether justified my values in education and eco-social justice. Universities and not-for-profit soc justice have a high integrity basis as Jesus´ legacy, that has been allowed to fragment, but perhaps necessarily. It is post Reformation, Enlightenment, and University-based society that now holds Jesus´ legacy in a kind of lopsided suspension, and with churches and their doctrines, it is all like the elephant and the blind monks while Jesus (and his high integrity legacy) names it as the elephant. Psychosomatic Medicine´s labwork is the tip of an iceberg, and Greenpeace, Oxfam, food co-ops, and credit unions, all crying for their mommy Jesus, to put it lightly. The Prodigal Son parable (Luke 15:11) itself merely suggests that it is only the sinning outsider who needs Jesus and God by returning, incorrectly. Yes, that is a possibility, but only one angle. The non-Jewish woman story who implores Jesus to heal her daughter, is told that the bread is for the "children," not the dogs. She replies that the crumbs are still good enough for the dogs! Jesus is struck by the lightning of her faith. (Matt 15:26). Jesus himself has expanded his vision and learned in God´s world thanks to an outsider. Peter and Pauls´ own expanded visions come later, each with his own relevant lessons. The lesson is spectacularly demonstrated by FD and Eleanor Roosevelts´ visions for the United Nations. Indeed, Jesus´ image and many Christians have to be freed and reintroduced to Jesus´ existing legacy and the real meaning of high integrity that challenges profiteering business´ and mechanistic science´s pretenses, devious or otherwise misguided.

"Atheists, Deists, and the Chinese Caused Renaissance/Enlightenment"

Mark Rego Montei Zafar Shar You refer to atheist, Deist, and Chinese influences as the basis of the Renaissance and Enlightenment. You are not alone in making the first two assertions, while the third goes further than more common notions. Atheists normally promote the first two views based on their untenable and ideological stereotyping assumptions that go basically, "Some Christianity has been repressive, therefore no advances can be Christian." In fact, both the Renaissance and Enlightenment involved Christians developing art and ideas, respectively. As human beings experiencing the benefits of Christian historical and social developments, like monastic schools and Universities, Luther´s Reformation freed Christian thinkers for the Enlightenment. Christians like DesCartes and Galileo didn´t emphasize the roles of God and Jesus as they did science, so it became mechanistic and split off. Pascal made a protest at the time, as did John Locke. "Atheism" is basically a derivative position that simply denies its dependence on the efforts of theists, as was the case with Hobbes and Hume, I think. Atheism can´t actually sustain the networks that are its base. Deism is just rationalist theism, and a Christian position dissenting from hypocritical authority, as with Thomas Jefferson. Any Chinese knowledge would have had limited impact for a non-Chinese culture, while Christian monastic-University-based culture used primarily ancient Greek philosophy unleashed by Christian culture and faith in an omnipotent God thru Jesus to organize intellectual insights, and include Muslim scholarship, and so on. "God wants to be worshiped in Spirit and Truth," along with God´s commandments through Jesus to "Love thy neighbor as thyself, etc.."

Brain-Mind Interface, Spiritual Intelligence, and the Transpersonal

Supernatural and fantasy thinking about religion. Is it good or evil? We can scientifically explain the supernatural itch that some allow to control their thinking. In children, this might be a good way of expanding their minds, but adults are asked to put away the things of children, which, to me, includes supernatural and fantasy thinking. I use these to show substance dualism. I see this as a useful trait for us in nature but not for our spiritual and religious sides.... by Grea

brmck "I use these to show substance dualism. I see this as a useful trait for us in nature but not for our spiritual and religious sides." Just as mind and brain are not hierarchical. But instantaneously interdependent. There is nothing supernatural, as in separate from, or beyond nature. All perception involves abstraction. Including the perception of a self. Also no aspect of our existence is independent from existence. Including experience. That said, this business of "mind" being somehow as "material" as brain sounds fishy. It can just as easily be said that "brain" is as spiritual as "mind". What follows from the above is that existence is experience. There are no actual boundaries. •

greenpeaceRdale184 brmck• "as mind and brain are not hierarchical. But instantaneously interdependent." You caught an interesting interface in your focus. Are you familiar with the term "emergence"? I am going to question your assertion of "not hierarchical," brm, because it´s unjustified, and not mutually exclusive with the similarly asserted "instantaneously interdependent." Instead, I´ll pose the question, "Are mind and brain hierarchical?" Case studies: Buddha was a coddled prince when he left his royal enclave and virtual bubble. His six years of seeking with gurus led him to perceive and organize his thoughts with some reference to the scheme of the Four Noble Truths, and the importance of meditation. That might then be distinguished from, say, Zen schools to the degree that they don´t teach the Four, it might be worth noting. In the Dharmapada, the account of the Buddha and the murderer Angulimala is told. The Buddha walks through the area of the notorious bandit-murderer, who sees the monk and stalks him as another victim. Trying to approach close to the monk-Buddha, the killer A. suddenly found himself unable to close the distance. So he shouted....Long and short, the Buddha says, "I have stopped my urge to violence inside, while you have not." And Angulimala was psychologically struck and converted. The Buddha, who could have been killed like any other flesh and blood human being in Indian history and world history before his awakening, demonstrated an alternative outcome based on psychosocial and spiritual mind-led development. That killer also became a Buddhist monk who had continuing experiences that revealed his karmic moral debt being resolved. Simple killers will not infrequently meet their end as they have lived, as Jesus related, "Live by the sword, die by the sword." Mars was the Roman god of war, and the Hindu pantheon conceives of a "destroyer," Vishnu? Angulimala is not told as worshiping any god, as far as that goes. His mind was leading his brain according to some alignment, however, that was toxic to others, while the Buddha´s demonstrated a quality that first disarmed the killer´s capability to act, then identified his condition in a way that stimulated him to pursue reorientation.

The Buddha´s brain-mind context is similar to the dynamics when Jesus healed, and taught the need to "clean the cup within" and experience "the Kingdom of Heaven." Understanding the self-reflecting and self-awareness of these two leading spiritual teacher figures, we can see that the mind is, in the physical material world, a psychosocial and cultural interface. The mind is able to cultivate the brain itself to operate in what at least Richard Griffiths calls spiritually intelligent "synchronous processing." Griffiths has ascertained that from work like A Newberg´s brainscan studies. It´s also a modern form of shamanic intelligence. Anthony of the Desert has a rich life story and pre-modern spiritual odyssey that appears to be phrased in mythological terms, but besides his "demons" of boredom and the like, one incident at least that stands out after his cathartic theosis is his dream about Paul of Thebes, another Christian ascetic. Modern NDE´s also reveal information gained by people while dead in hospitals, where higher degrees of reliability can be established. Thus, I would argue that evidence like that suggests that sequentially, the brain is first necessary for the mind as we grow according to Piaget et al´s cognitive and affective developmental stages, and then in psychosocial and cultural development, the mind can guide the brain to higher developmental levels in a way that can protect that physical brain and even gain inforrmation in, or in connection with, an apparently immaterial plane. That can occur in balance with degrees of logical and emotional intelligence in appropriate types of effort and time, and in relation to nature (shamanism at least), higher laws (karma) or the source of that law (dharmakaya), or entities (angels, power animals, the Great Spirit/Sacredness, God thru Jesus, etc, at least) can recognize Transpersonal relationships. ***

brmckay greenpeaceRdale1844coop • "Emergent effect" and "causal potential" are absolutely simultaneous in the context of Reality. (the mind's sense of time and sequence included, as with the brains chemistry and legacy of quantum whatever) •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop brmckay • Simultaneity is a reasonable hypothesis, but I´d need to ponder it. brm, why are you in such a rush to make assertions as if there is no need to make propositions to be weighed empirically? My comment was a reflection on mind-brain hierarchy. By creating cases, we can begin to apply empirical standards that fortify the urge to perceive the truth. No "know-it-all" is dispensing truth by command to anyone´s satisfaction except conformists. •

brmckay greenpeaceRdale1844coop An excess of "a priori" on my part I suppose. But what was your take on the question of "supernatural"?

greenpeaceRdale1844coop brmckay • Having fortified myself with Psychosomatic Medicine and love´s dimensions in healing, transpersonal relationship, Scientism´s fallacy, and epistemology type stuff, and even Bohm´s implicate order, already when the "Religion" anti-theist blog was still up I was taken by the implications of Christian dreams and visions, like Anthony of the Desert´s and St. Mercurious´ multivalents (his dad´s about him, too). Galen´s dad had a pagan vision about him. By modern times now, videos and programming help organize testimonies that capture fascinating Transpersonal dynamics. Marlene Klepees had cerebral palsy (childhood brain damage) and a suffering youth as she became Christian. Her suffering continued until she arrived at the Mayo Clinic, where her spastic pain was observed. The 20 or so yr old said to God, "(Make it) stop!" and she had a vision that she would be healed. The next day, she prayed, got a yellow pages book (those were the days), and had an intuition about a listing. She called, the pastor (of a church with no tradition of healing) sounded right to her, came to get her, and took her for a group prayer session, where she was healed. The Mayo Clinic caught the before and after. She´s now a preacher. Simply marvelous. A potential non-material, spiritual-religious Transpersonal cause-effect was triggered in a sequence in a modern Christian context. It´s not just psychosomatic, but in Christian Transpersonal relationship- "God, stop (this)!" Quantum mechanics might potentiate the bio-neurophysiological adjustments, but the Transpersonal focus was God the Creator, immanent, omnipresent, and transcendent. Supernatural, God as transcendent, prayer and meditation, shamanically and the like in the sacred, as non-objectified relation with an immaterial aspect of the Universe, perceived by and related to by us in our emergence. "Natural" can be extended to include it, but then it´s a Big Friendly Fluffy Cat-Dog-Grandpa of a Giganto-Cosmo-Quanto-Creator-Sustainer natural with God as a transcendent Other, I like "supernatural." And with Jesus, Buddha, and Mary B Eddy. •

brmckay greenpeaceRdale1844coop • See, not so hard. And the "know-it-all" doesn't need to quibble about the dependence on "materiality" in counterpoint to "transcendence". (maybe just point it out) Though he might want to "know" why it is necessary that God as "Other" is the one required to transcend, just so we can use the past tense for "Creation". •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop brmckay • "Not so hard"? C´mon, that fermentation´s not MY difficulty your commenting on. I engaged with you starting with a reply on your subtopic comment about the brain-mind interface and whether or not it´s hierarchical. My case studies suggest it is, in fact, judging from two angles, the spiritual-Transpersonal developmental and the more primary Piagetian developmental. You still haven´t addressed that, though you are demonstrating that even "a priori" assertions are subject to the basic rules of knowledge in Epistemological Philosophy, "a justified, true (i.e. verifiable) belief" and as per Plantinga, "warranted." That is because "know-it-all" isn´t true unless it involves the very necessary steps of rigorous knowledge that has allowed Christian-derived modern forms of Philosophy to take modernity to unprecedented levels. As for "quibbling," that requires something trivial. This stuff is filled with fascinating and uncommon details in my book. As such, "dependence on materiality" plays out how? And "transcendence"? The term "counterpoint" in´t so immediately familiar to me, although its unconflicted semantics in music seem most true off-hand, although conflicted perception is common. That said, your point of material reality as foundational certainly corresponds to my experience valuing the study of, say, Biology and the sciences highly, Psychology and the widely disparaged emotions and their psychosocial therapeutic dynamics significantly, and the material value of societal and then multicultural dynamics, the educational Universities and their historical and sociological basis in monastic schools and back to Jesus and the Apostles. In observing the role of Church pronouncements in the Condemnations of 1277 that prohibited taking ancient Greek limiting assumptions, and asserted the Christian view of an omnipotent and lawful God, we see that Transpersonal Psychology, as part of psychosocial and cultural emergent phenomena, transforms your assertion of "dependence on" to "emerges from foundations of." That is, "material reality" in modern Western culture depends on a Transpersonal relationship with the transcendent. Al Gore´s courage around environmentalism reflects his potential non-Biologist professional vulnerability as a politician that limited his already determined and extensive efforts. Medical doctors have higher theist levels as a demographic among scientists, but not all. The study of History and developmental Psychology thus offers insight into the synergy that can occur in a material-transcendent interactive dynamic. "Why is it necessary that God as "Other" is the one required to transcend, just so we can use the past tense for "Creation"? "Necessity" relates to observed function, operation, and experience. Shamans, in the Paleolithic and later hunter-gatherer tribal and like contexts already were, and have been able to achieve healing and other forms of psychosocial stimulation, and working with power animals and what Michael Harner calls "non-ordinary" interconnected states of reality and/or consciousness. Various forms of modern mental illness, like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder appear to be biochemical and genetic in light of traditional shamanism and likely modern forms of spirituality, Therapeutic Psychology, Psychosomatic Medicine, and so on. Analogously, sickle-cell anemia became an established genetic condition because of its heterozygous advantages against malaria. The Buddha´s experience provides rich insights into the process in the Neolithic larger urban settlement society, confirmed by its considerably successful spread and modern Psychology. The Buddha identified the problem in the Second of Four Noble Truths, you may have heard, that the cause of (excess) suffering is (addictive) attachment to desire. Jesus, for his part normally distorted by doctrines, clearly identified the "wickedness within." The Buddha i.d.´d further " a "sphere of the uncreated" and a "law guiding all beings to enlightenment, that is a Spirit, as perception and the sense-perceived world are both spiritual." Buddha observed, reflected, and asserted that because the uncreated can be perceived, liberation from the conditioned can be achieved. The Buddha who had been raised a material-needs-sated prince, in his enormous accomplishment in establishing that tradition, assumed a key role in a Transpersonal spiritual-religious phenomenal chain. Meanwhile, the Buddha had a talented cousin Devadatta who became twisted as an envious and treacherous attempted usurper of the Buddha. Jesus´ role in establishing the basis of what has become a modern University-based, globalized UN community emerged from the theist Jewish tradition and the Abraham-Moses prophetic line of 50+ representatives. " just so we can use the past tense for "Creation". Your notion of causality is hardly adequate, first of all. Again, you asserted an unexamined answer to your question. That´s not "a priori," that´s a preconceived notion, BTW. "Creation" as a "past tense" of the putative Big Bang is clarified by the issue of eternity and substrate foundation. Is the Universe eternal? Apparently not. Why is there something instead of nothing? Something or some entity caused this Universe, creating it, as Aristotle perceived in impersonalized philosophical terms as the First Cause and Unmoved Mover, on top of ancient Greek religion like the Orphic Mysteries and their mythic notions of Chaos, from which emerged Gaia, Eros, etc. Thomas of Aquinas elaborated Aristotle´s induction and deduction to such formulations as the Uncaused Cause, and valuing Christ and the parental, personal, accessible, benevolent, and responsive God. Thus, your view of an indifferent, "past-tense" Creator harkens back to Thomas Jefferson, who was famously a rationalist Deist Christian fairly ignorant of religious experience. Meanwhile, he ignored even the not-so-obscure examples of Francis of Assisi who did not rationally decide to "hit the streets." He had visionary experiences. Franciscans in Gr Britain became early scientists, significantly. Martin Luther, too, hardly had a smooth formative experience, and even had a lightning bolt strike near him at a crucial moment. George Fox in the UK, unlike the organized Franciscans or Anglicans in the Universities, had visions in synch with his reflections as the son of a wool merchant. Thus, all by Hugo Grotius´ time, Grotius envisioned Religious Tolerance by harping on not just God´s existence, but his Providence. That is Jesus´ teaching of praying to God and asking for help and guidance. I started with H Smith´s portrayal of the Chinese Tao, myself. "A creative continuum that is always accessible."

brmckay greenpeaceRdale1844 "Is the Universe eternal? Apparently not. " Why? Whose image is it [sorry, was it] made in then? •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop brmckay • "Why?" is the Universe itself not eternal? Is your knowledge of Physics not even up to the basic first answer component? The Universe, meaning the scientifically observable Universe described by Scientific Philosophy, has a Cosmology based on the observed red (and blue) shifts of galaxies that have led to the rigors of the Big Bang hypothesis. Thus, any "eternal" reality and entity is of a different order of existence, aka ontology. As for "images," you seem to be confusing the Biblical OT assertion that "God made humankind in his image" with, "And God said let there be light..., etc." The study of "emergence" suggests that as a relevant process to the extent that we can reflect upon the transcendent Creator/Source Entity and its relation to us as part of material reality, and Jesus and his diverse layers of context as the indisputable key foundation of globalized University-based, corporate business-corrupted Western Civilization, and the US-UN community. •

Bishadi greenpeaceRdale1844coop • The universe has been here before and after you. Eternal to your life. The 'big bang hypothesis' is just an opinion. No god magically gave the scientist the theorem or idea. Thus, the eternal universe is still eternal to your life. before during and after! The bible is man made, so any assertion is just like the big bang; man made opinion. What transcends is time. But the universe was here before you, and will be after you. •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop Bishadi Ah, OK, brm. You are expressing your views. How they match with empirical and other shared perceptions of reality is another thing. As I said before, your assertions aren´t truths. They are assertions. You used the term "a priori," which is a philosophical term, but with no apparent interest in my observations, critiques, and refutations of your assertions. Apparently, your "spiritual path" is rather self-indulgent. "The universe... is eternal to your life." So, now the ego is your standard? Yeah, no. I feel a little disappointed at your egotistical demonstration, but happy that you have revealed the nature of your premises more clearly. Myself, I am the son of a man and a woman, and so on back through evolutionary time, and scientific philosophers have provided as excellent a basis for bicycle technology, the internet, and wind turbine co-operatives as they have for religious philosophizing, and vice versa. The Dinosaurs died out 65 mya, life started on Earth around 3.8 bya, and astrophysicists have fed theoretical physicists quite a bundle of info to calculate the Universe´s origins around 13.8 bya. Cause and effect, and math. "The 'big bang hypothesis' is just an opinion" Uh, see above. "No god magically gave the scientist the theorem or idea. Thus, the eternal universe is still eternal to your life. before during and after!" OK, so. Actually, scientists have achieved much, with pros and cons. One con is that the spiritual origins surrounding modern scientific philosophy have been widely ignored, but I have read work based on that of P Duhem and other scholars that identifies the role of nothing less than the Condemnations of 1277. Rob´t Grosseteste would have been one of the Oxford Franciscan School that identified flaws in Aristotle and benefited. Aristotle´s limiting assumptions included "metabasis" that were then condemned as the Christian view of God the Creator and Providential Source attributed omnipotence to Him in creating physical behavior. So, your so-called "a priori," but actual mistaking of pontificating for knowledge, betrays you once again. I´ve been learning a lot as I go from the internet. You, aren´t. God as transcendent Creator etc matters, and Jesus matters. Your wild-eyed mysticism is undisciplined, merely self-indulgent and self-gratifying, and leaves you ungrounded. "The bible is man made, so any assertion is just like the big bang; man made opinion." And again, you and your fallacies. The Bible is written by men, with ample historical elements, and the conveyance of the Hebrew/Jewish religious prophetic tradition with its coherent, consistent, individualized, and persistent elements through 50 plus representatives to Jesus. Jesus, among other aspects, fulfilled Abraham´s covenant and Moses´ Commandments with such elements as the Lord´s Prayer, and created an unprecedented legacy. An exemplary sequence might include Moses´ dealing with the Pharaoh in Egypt until he brought God´s Ten Commandments down, including "Thou shalt not kill," while things developed until Jesus and his teachings to "Seek first the Kingdom of Heaven," "Clean the cup within," and learn to "Love thy neighbor as thyself, as Jesus loved others, until thy enemy, and God first of all." Whether recognizing the US´s problems or cultural strengths, and the role of high integrity Christians dissenting from hypocritical authorities, and FDR and Eleanors´ UN vision, all told your view is sadly as misinformed as it is naive. "What transcends is time. But the universe was here before you, and will be after you." Time? Einstein didn´t become a household name because "time" is special, but because the velocity of light in a vacuum is. It is a constant that nothing moving supersedes, and it is the number that when squared fulfills simpler formulas like F=m a (m/sec2) as E=Mc2. Time, no less, is an abstraction constructed out of motion. The Universe and me? The Universe´s Creator and Source preceded it and made coherent modernity possible thanks primarily to Jesus Christ, his legacy, and diversity. It is thus that we can recognize the evil of hypocrisy and misguided denialism and the blessing of high integrity acts, including healing, activism, and disciplined knowledge. What good is the Universe being here after you if it escapes you even now? •

Bishadi greenpeaceRdale1844coop • I said, "The universe has been here before and after you" As I said before, your assertions aren´t truths Stop there! You have a whole bunch of nonsense running thru your head. What i wrote is true no matter the angle. The universe is eternal to your life, as it is the alpha and omega to everything that is you. Again, nothing to debate, no matter the angle. You can, nor will ever leave the universe. the 'a priori' is to be honest before belief.

greenpeaceRdale1844coop Bishadi • Bishadi, look at that. You inserted yourself so smoothly, and the hour was so late, I mixed you up with the other guy. No matter, small adjustments. "What i wrote is true no matter the angle." Of course, you distort and confuse things as usual. My statement applies to you, and in this case, you distort your own assertion which goes "The universe has been here before and after you. Eternal to your life." Your loose use of terms has license in poetry, not Philosophy as here. Before Scientific Philosophy´s scientific philosophers had worked out the Big Bang, Aristotle´s metaphysics as of ca 340 BC/E soundly treated cause and effect as far as he went, building off Greek religious foundations of Chaos and emergent entities. and identified a First Cause and Unmoved Mover. Biblical scholarship of Genesis´ Creation has two versions and two sources, Yahwist and Priestly. Earlier thought considered the 9th century Solomon-era a possibility for the Yahwist, while recent thought locates it close to or in the Babylonian exile starting around 600 BC. Their decision of Creatipn does not confuse the nature of "eternity," and demonstrates a conceptual clarity that has been amply confirmed by Jesus Christ´s legacy in relation to God. Yours is an egocentric formulation that leaves you unclear about the significance of Jesus and his emergence in the Jewish tradition for God´s love, and his legacy. •

brmckay greenpeaceRdale1844coop • "The study of "emergence" suggests that [let there be light...etc.] as a relevant process to the extent that we can reflect upon the transcendent Creator/Source Entity..." The Whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Who kicked who out of the garden? And is it really a thing? Does it actually hold water? Or's it just a bad dream? •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop brmckay • "The Whole being greater than the sum of its parts." And in fact, a new level of reality: Physics into Chemistry into Biology into Human Anthropology, for example. Jesus´ legacy has given us the intellectual resources to analyze and understand, if we are disciplined. As such, the emergence of human symbolic psychosocial culture and behavior led humankind in Neolithic agricultural settlements. From Sargon of Mesopotamia´s conquests and being "punished by the god Marduk for his evil deeds with famine" to Alexander the Great rising to power after his mother´s assassinating his father and slaughtering enemies, and the Romans as well as they did at Corinth in 145 BC/E, humans have abused power cruelly. Socrates was executed. Moses followed Abraham´s covenant with God´s Ten Commandments, but Jesus has brought personal accountability to God to a new potential. If you don´t understand the value of the Freedom of Religion, and the meaning of emergent and resurgent high integrity Christians like Francis of Assisi, George Fox, Lucretia Mott, John Muir, Christian-Hindu Gandhi, FDR, MLK, and Al Gore, then no wonder you treat it all like a dream. You are alienated and in the dark. •

brmckay greenpeaceRdale1844coop • "/"The Whole being greater than the sum of its parts."/ And in fact, a new level of reality: Physics into Chemistry into Biology into Human Anthropology, for example. Jesus´ legacy has given us the intellectual resources to analyze and understand, if we are disciplined. " (dare I say it?) In the a priori context of Reality as Entire, "levels" constitute "parts". And, "dreams" indicate a dreamer. The quality of the "dreamer" isn't actually measurable in terms of the dream. But that doesn't make the dream journey less than Real either. For me, the seamlessness of Reality means that your "transcendent God" is just bollox. But now I have to invoke the poet James Richardson when he said, "I could explain but then you would understand my explanation, not what I said." •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop brmckay • Your "seamless" Reality leaves you as a mixed metaphorical goldfish barking about seamless pantheism and poets on the internet, and calling names like "bollocks" the transcendence of your pet-fish owner, feeder, and water-changer, pump-cleaner, all a metaphor of and analogy to your "Western" all-surrounding psychosocial and cultural context founded on the approach and understanding of a parental loving immaterial God through Jesus, the Creator-Source-Dreamer. It underlies anyone that now gains full awareness of their being an "individual dreamer" dreaming like the childhood boat-rowing ditty and Aerosmith´s song crooned. One manner of explaining that is because you perceive your goldfish self seamlessly with the water, just like brainless atoms and low cognitive mice like even strategy-capable lions and dolphins, all of whom are "parts" of a whole. Unlike goldfish, and the rest, however, cognitive humans can understand levels and distinctions adequately, descending from Paleolithic tool use and socio-emotional cognition and communication. That is what the Greek-derived, modernized Christian-based Scientific Revolution in a socio-religious complex made possible. Do I not understand what you say through another, "invoking" a poet? Modern poets for their PART such as it is and as far as it goes, in the end, are ARTISTS in the globalized Christian-derived WTO-UN community, their fishbowl complex. Modern Psychologists, for their own PART and in their distinct function and role, have identified the denialism, projection, and other defense mechanisms that try to compensate for unacknowledged and repressed pain. In full, it is the Christian University-based foundation that supplies such levels of wisdom and knowledge in the diversely special multi- and interdisciplinarity, and finally through the Reformation and Enlightenment-based Freedom of Religion and scholarship of Comparative Religion. Subsequent and consequent virtually free access to alternative spiritual masters and their supplementary insights, as I "summon" Buddha´s story of the bragging jumping monkey. "See those five mountains way over there?" said the monkey to the Buddha. "I can jump all the way there, pee on them, and back before you can say, "Seamless Jumping Jehosaphat!" And he did, boing, boing, and was back again with the Buddha. "See?" said the huffing monkey. "Pee?" said the Buddha, opening his fingers, each with a yellow stain at the tip-peak. "We three see," say I, "seamlessly," thanking the transcendent parental God through Jesus in the clarity of subordinate-relation, not a harsh inferiority, and gratitude through Nature and sociohistorical people and processes, along with gratitude to the non-theist dharmakaya-spiritual Buddha, and so on, the "giant´s shoulders" Newton acknowledged, those he didn´t, and those he could hardly have even known about even if he had gotten acquainted with the futuristic atavism of George Fox´s Quaker-Friend Christianity or Q-F son poet Walt Whitman. "You, however, think like a juvenile goldfish, that your veins are like seamless zippers, but they aren´t, like the words you speak and hear, but that someone else has said, and even what they actually said and meant. Veins have differentiated valves, and so, you don´t (see like we three, seamlessly in differentiation, interrelation, and (empowering) hierarchy)." And, upon further reflection, it is worth noting that Jesus, and the Jewish prophets even went so far as to refer to, "Those who have eyes, but cannot see, and ears, but cannot hear" as in Psalm 135 and Mark 4 and 8. Want a cane and a funnel for that, or are you a guide-dog guy, or perhaps a dream-catcher? •

brmckay@ greenpeaceRdale1844co And yet, the Guru's role, though loved, is to help the disciple find their own Way. Not be made a god. Same with avatars if the case may be.

greenpeaceRdale1844coop @brmckay Yet, there is no God but God, and Gurus and avatars are, in globalized WTO-UN fact, Jesus the Savior´s prophets, as I might refer to Gandhi, Fannie Lou Hamer, and Al Gore, while thanking Mohammad´s and Muslims´ integrity in Jesus for that turn of speech. So, find your own way, but the "bollocks" are yours, not the transcendence of God. The path to making a pie doesn´t mean that you can throw a pie in the sky without it falling back in your own face. •

brmck @greenpeaceRdale1844c "The path to making a pie doesn´t mean that you can throw a pie in the sky without it falling back in your own face." If it is to not fall back, it is the pie that transcends not the sky ॐ Any error that keeps me away from God is on "me". Or did you think I didn't know that? •

Avatar greenpeaceRdale1844@brmc• A pie is not for throwing at the sky under normal circumstances, but for eating. Neither pies nor the sky "transcend" in relevant metaphors. Metaphors symbollically render intangibles, whether psychological conditions, emotional states, or the transcendent, more concrete and comprehensible. The symbolic expressions I drew on are drawn from tradition, and intuitively, anthropologically, psychologically, and folklorically reflect projected psychodynamics, especially unacknowledged emotions, as in "a pie in the face," and your addressing God´s transcendence as "bollocks." It is enjoying someone´s, or our own, pie, best of all with local, organic, and Fair Trade ingredients, and our mindfullness and gratitude, that approaches fulfillment of the integrity Jesus taught for God´s love, informed by Buddha, Socrates, Aquinas, DesCartes, and so on. In Zen Buddhism they teach, "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. Afterwards, the same," whether from Myoan Eisai ca 1180 or not. In Jesus, with the Kingdom of Heaven, the Lord´s Prayer, Anthony of the Desert ca 270, Tibetan and comprehensive Buddhism, and so on, we can transcend Buddhist non-theist enlightenment by a few notches and degrees into an advanced modern form of "theosis" (or "divinization"). Yet, that´s just a road map, and as Korzybski has helped be said, the map is not the territory. Thus, in fact, the error that keeps you "away from" God, is not just your error, but one that has been, and still is, shared by many, and some with far less benevolent orientations and influence. Moreover, "error" is only really applicable in an assertion of philosophical truth, such as the question of the transcendent nature of God in relation to us in Nature and the Created Universe according to Jesus´ legacy in University-based WTO-US-EU globalized pluralistic UN society that affirms Human Rights and the Freedom of Religion. Being "separated from a caring/cared for relationship with a transcendent God whiling calling transcendence 'bollocks'" is a psychosocial, subcultural, and Transpersonal psychological "condition," not itself an "error." It doesn´t appear that you know that. Fundamentalists and their profiteering overlords threaten the sustainability of the world around you. A transcendent God through Jesus empowered George Fox to establish Quaker-Friendism, which empowered Anti-slavery dissidents and the like through scholars of Comparative Religion like Schopenhauer and Max Mueller, anthropologists like Lewis Morgan, and the Swedenborgian lead organizer of the 1890s World Parliament of Religion, Helen Blavatsky´s Theosophy, the 1860s Hindu renaissance that led to the interfaith Christian-Hindu Gandhi, the 1915 US Fellowship of Reconciliation, Alan Watt´s 1930s book on Zen, and the 1960s founding of the interfaith Unitarian Universalist Religious Assoc, and so on. If I said, "I think you know all that," I´d be lying, so I won´t. My God and Sweet Jesus! Did you think I would ever say anything like that? Or maybe you think I think the Pope doesn´t p**p in the woods?

brmckay@ greenpeaceRdale1844 "Being "separated from a caring/cared for relationship with a transcendent God whiling calling transcendence 'bollocks'" is a psychosocial, subcultural, and Transpersonal psychological "condition," not itself an "error."" "tran·scend·ence /ˌtran(t)ˈsendəns/ noun existence or experience beyond the normal or physical level. "the possibility of spiritual transcendence in the modern world"" It is bollox to insist that God transcends the "normal or physical level". That being our process, and the reason for Jesus. (as well as all the teachers, Guru, saints, savants and avatars). As for Helen Blavatsky, I had more affinity with Alexandra David-Néel, though Annie Besant turned me on to Sanskrit and Devanāgarī. And Scot and Helen Neering meant a lot too. Enough that it was amusing to learn Helen had been Krishnamurti's main squeeze in the very early years. (they met on a cruise in the company of Joseph Campbell if I recall correctly). And now I just fear providing you with so much text to contradict, and misconstrue. •

greenpeaceRdale1844coop @brmck • Your expressing "fear" and thinking about "text" that can be "contradicted and misconstrued" are more of the first of the two parts of your condition as separate from God, whose apparent Son Jesus taught, "Take the plank out of your own eye..." and "the truth shall set you free." You "fear" in good measure because you don´t know "care" or "love" adequately, even as you pantheistically, and codependently mistake God as "existence." Psychology teaches that our parents each show us forms of love, abuse, or neglect. That certainly is a key foundation, and affects someone´s ability to recognize the significance of Louise Hay´s advocacy of the spiritual and therapeutic affirmation, "I love myself." A basic knowledge of Jesus brings to mind his powerful second commandment, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." That as the first angle, and then the second, you and your continuing philosophical error, that "It is bollox to insist that God transcends the "normal or physical level." You state, "That being our process, and the reason for Jesus." Perhaps you are referring to "God," but then you gossip. Are you aware of what you tried to say? Understanding the transcendent can be done systematically, but calling it "bollox" (sic) and "our process" sounds like your pantheism and its fallacious overidentification. But, that´s why ecosocial sustainability makes an excellent basis for grounding Christ´s legacy and spurring awakening as it did in context for Gandhi. Without understanding the transcendent, even as Buddha did, you are trapped. But, that is your condition and that is where you misappropriate philosophy, contaminate it without discernment, and substitute the conceited anger of the phrase "a transcendent God is bollocks." Besant, for her part, seems to have experienced, but failed to grasp, the dissociation, negation, and ahistorical fallacy of ex-"World Teacher" Krishnamurti´s "I maintain that truth is a pathless land." Meanwhile, FD and Eleanors´ Christian United Nations helped nurture the rocky global cultural environment that faces corp exec profiteering and unsustainability. Al Gore, the ecumenical Christian, at least amply demonstrates the resurgent Christian integrity that has accompanied the culture´s history. His divorce was sad, but he´s on a mission for God through Jesus. I fear that you don´t get that.

• brmckay @greenpeaceRdale1844 Jesus needs to have a word or two with you. I'm leaving you and him to sort out your mess. I figure you are probably schizophrenic as was my grandfather. Didn't do psychotropics to augment it, but spent his life in institutions. This is getting depressing. Blocking you again. so I won't be reading any more feverish ego rants. At least for now. •

greenpeaceRdale1844@ brmc Ah, talk about a psychological break. Dude, I´m a guy who can lay down the line and serves you notice in your lala land. Apparently, your goat getting gotten, here by me, a straightshooter with a utility belt, is part of your spiritual facade and egotistical victimized MO, and you have nowhere to go but pushed over your edge. As Jesus actually is written to have said, there, pantheist, "Take the plank out of your own eye...." Too bad your gramps didn´t study psychology or have a non-scizophrenogenic atmosphere, and more. As for you, I have made the distinction between your philosophical language that is technically appropriate in this context, and your condition as a pantheist individual with what is in fact your strictly limited psychological self-awareness that directs your argumentation, making it actually mere self-expression. You do vaguely justify that with the term "a priori," but that is your personal semantics. As for schizophrenic, my use of metaphorical language is articulate like the multifarious scholar activist I am, for one. For another, you also confuse the polarized nature of perception, as is a central insight of Taoism and psychology (cognitive vs. affective). That makes you, as some might say, "a flaky pantheist." The subject, of course, is a transcendent God, and the fact is in this context, you hold logical fallacies that "bollocks" and "process" does not actually refute. And block away. That appears to be the format of your head, anyway.